I get all that. I just think we need to understand, as you imply, that all gear colors the sound in one form or another. I also don't dig geer that is really brash (think krell). I don't dig any sub that, when you close your eyes, you can point to in a room. I like gear to be 'musical'. But I think most people, regardless of their choices, would say the same.

Me, I got a Classe amp. Solid state, clear, very musical. But, if you were a tube head you might think it too forward.

surround for movies, stereo for music, I have them on oppisite ends of my room with each treated accordingly. you just turn around .

I have a friend that just gave me an Eico st70 stereo power amp.....n.o.s. in the box! Still unassembled from the 50's people! I have enough tube power amps to rid myself of the H.K. theatre system I have....anyone know where to find a dedicated surround decoder to run these old tube amps?

20-30 watt tube amps, 8" full range drivers(paudio, or fostex) a nice t-line enclosure and whamo! 3-d sound. now if you wanna bring the noize, get a krell and some b&w's, that will crush on heavy music.

I have opinions on this subject! I have quite a bit of experience with vintage tube gear. I fix it and have listened to quite a bit including but not limited to– marantz 8 power Dynaco monos and st-70, some macintosh stereo power amp, eico hf 60 power amps, heathkit ua1's, many scott integrateds, fisher amps integrateds and recievers, and misc other etc... I don't like solid state stuff. At least I haven't heard anything I like. To be fair I haven't heard that much high end stuff, but then to be honest, I don't care to. I'm happy being a tube geek. Vintage gear is a mixed bag. some of it's good, some of it's trashy, but it's all relative. To me this game is all about references. Sometimes you hear something that changes your point of reference.

Another thing I've noticed is that people are after different things in their sound systems. Some value the most color free sound, or most accurate, or the most fluid and sweet, whatever. My personal preference is that it is enjoyable to listen to. I want to think it sounds good, but I also want to Feel Good when I'm listening. Music has the power to move you. If it moves me more with one amp than another, I want the latter! I don't get the obsession with accuracy and coloration thing. I agree that all amps contribute coloration, but how much and what kind and really importantly is it enjoyable coloration. One theory offered is that the coloration contributed by tube amps is more in the way of even order harmonics while solid state contributes more in the way of odd harmonics. Even harmonics are supposed to be more pleasant and natural to the human ear. I like this theory. Makes sense to me. There is a really cool blind study by some psychologist in Germany where subjects listened to three different systems one tube and vinyl, one cd and tube, and one cd and solid state amp. The physical and emotional reactions were better with the tube analog and worse with the cd/solidstate, with the cd/tube in between. There is plenty of room for error in this study, but I think their findings were probably accurate. Then again I'm biased (did anyone get that pun?) I wish I could find it to post as a link.

Anyway, a story. A few years ago a friend and I were deep into trying to figure out best vintage tube integrateds. He had been with a fisher x-202b for a long time and trying to find something to trump it. we ran through a bunch of stuff in two days using his KEF 105's (thumbs up!). I remember HH-Scott- 299, LK72B, LK72, 222B, 222c Fisher- kx200, x202b, 400. There might have been something else. Almost all were restored by me, and pretty thoroughly! I worked those things over a lot. I used similar components in most of them. One was only marginally restored, I think it might have been the 299. I became more of a fisher fan and less of a scott fan over those two days. Basic differences- Scott closed in, grungy unable to handle complex material and transients well. didn't make me feel so good. I remember thinking that listening to the Scotts was like being in a very dark, hot, low ceilinged room with dirty carpets. The Scotts are beautiful, but sonically they are worn out painted whores with venereal diseases (no offence to the profession in general). The Fishers were generally more open feeling, like a clean wood floored room with a high cieling, cool and feeling expansive and breathy (maybe some danish furniture!). A definite improvement. The KX-200 was especially this way. The sound of the KX-200 was a stepford wife or barbie doll, polished or rounded off, like everything was coated in lacquer to round off the edges. I mean, she looks so hot and perfect, but she's a vacuous, substance-less, bimbo and you sort of have performance issues with her, 'cause looks and presentation ain't enough. Where's the soul? Still, it was the least offensive, and after two days of smelling each others armpits in a heat wave and listening intently to amps that frankly made me feel crappy, the detail and soul of the music was an acceptable sacrifice. I could breathe with this amp. Maybe she was on valium? I didn't quite think all this immediately at the time, but "all audio systems suck" and "least offensive" were definitely the take home message. In between we bopped down to the local hi-fi shop and listened to some crap they had in there, rolled our eyes and snickered at the prices.

Well, we were all done with the vintage integrateds. Tired, ear fatigued, but highly tuned, we had yet to compare a piece of more modern gear that we had on hand. We knew we liked it already, but now we had some serious reference time. This was a dehavilland mercury preamp. Plugged into a couple of low powered heathkit mono-blocks 6bq5 power amps about 15 watts a piece or so. With the first few notes, of the same crap we had been using over and over again, and which I didn't even like- some pop crap my friend likes, it was ALL OVER for vintage integrateds. I barely got through a couple lines of vocals before I had to stand up out of my chair exclaiming something or other. This system made me feel really good. The music not only felt good, but it felt deep. It could move you, but there was the accuracy, focus and tangibility right there in front of you, but not in your face. To continue my analogy to women, this was the woman I wanted. Real, sweaty, naturally scented, soft, sensual, sweet, sophisticated ready to flood your soul with warm love... Ahhh what a relief. We actually put on some music and listened for an hour or two even after all the previous ear torture. Kara Chafee is a genius. Thanks to my friends neurotic need to always try something new, I now own this system down to the speakers! Yes! Unfortunately it is now all currently running through some terrible AR 4x speakers with the kefs in storage...:( What a waste, but trailer.... money.... he's listening to some inferior crap, but enjoying it which is more than I can say for a lot of audiophiles. Although, you can enjoy the broader game too, and not just the listening.

Anyway, back to integrateds and recievers. We didn't have it there, but I really like the fisher 500c. It would have won the vintage contest part. I think it's a bad ass amp. Powerful, clean, open fast. Check it out if you can get one. They are abundant. My recommendation for vintage tube is get a 500c and go from there. Remember that you need good speakers though. Bad speakers can ruin anything. Avery Fisher can Kick Herman Hosmer Scott's ass up and down the block all day long.

A word of warning. These virtually always need work, all of them. They are old. Fishers are pretty easy to work on because they used these really stable metal film resistors, so it's mostly signal cap and power supply work. It's somewhat complicated by the fact that there is a tuner on board, but not so much. If you don't use it, you don't have to do everything in the tuner section, though I'd still recommend it. Watch out on ebay and anywhere else if it says the amp is in great working condition. How do they know? find out if it has had work, and, if not, expect to pay someone a pretty penny for parts and labour to do it. Running without at least replacing a few caps and checking out the power supply is dangerous to the amp. If the add says it's restored, find out who did it and what they did. If it was completely restored by the fisher doc, bill bittle or busy bee, go for it. It's worth an extra day of you at work to save yourself the hassle of finding someone to do it, and hoping they do a good job.

I could wax on, but I'll see if anyone wants to know more. If you want to know about a specific vintage amp, ask, I might have some impressions for you. BTW, the marantz and mac stuff I've heard I could do without. My marantz 8 is headed to the auction block. Very disappointing. The 8b was supposed to be improved, but I don't even care to hear it. The HF60's are highly prized too. I'm not impressed. They sound brown, like the color their painted. A lot of vintage guys are into these old Marantz solid state amps. They sound clean and powerful on the surface , very punchy, but that shit is coooold. Ick. try frigid stainless autopsy room full of gurnies and highly polished tools of trauma and dissection. Ouch. Tannoy speakers, they are indeed to-annoy ya. I thought they were the best thing going once. No thanks. The quad 57's, actually designed in 1957, wow, these are a trip. Holographic, euphoric.. maybe it's colored, but so what, gimme some more.... anybody got some?

Audiophilia is a trap. It can very easily take over and ruin your listening experience. Nothing sounds good anymore, everything is dissected, you always know there is something better out there just around the corner. You could be doing something more constructive. Saving your money. Using it to feed starving people or whatever. I say watch out! enjoy the music.

I don't think I mentioned that there is no accounting for taste. Should go without saying. Enough for now, I gotta go celebrate the equinox. It is an event with tangible direct meaning to me.

Gaahl bless